Home

Advertisement

Customize
April 2009   01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30

A Text Message Sets Me Wandering

Posted on 2007.11.25 at 19:25

I was sitting on the couch today, and received a text message from Dave:

Dave (4:08pm): Do you think humans have free-will, in the sense that deterministic laws of nature do not apply to conscious brain function?

This is classic Dave - a random contact out of the blue, about a deeply philosophical and complex topic.  Awesome.  I thought I replied to him - something along the lines of "no, I think it's purely physical, but it's hard to say without knowing what consciousness is.  are chaotic systems conscious?"  However, checking my text message log, it looks like I didn't reply.  I know I keyed it in, but maybe I just got caught up in the thinking and forgot.

Anyway, Dave's text touched off 3 hours of reading up on the philosophy of the mind, focusing on qualia and physicalism, while a football game played in the background.  I think I now have tools enough to adequately describe my personal beliefs on this topic without floundering for the right words.

First and foremost, I subscribe to a physicalist model of the world.  In some of my reading on the topic, I believe I may slightly differ from what most philosophers term physicalist, and this is probably due to sophistication of the argument (and I'm not too worried about it).  In a nutshell, there is nothing that is not physical, or a property based entirely on underlying physical objects.  A good example I read was of a dot matrix printer.  No two identical print-outs can have different dots, and no print-outs with different dots can be identical.  So, there are no supernatural forces, inscrutable non-physical essences, etc.  I think this view is much easier to hold in a Newtonian world than the quantum mess that Heisenberg and Planck uncovered, but I'll get to that later.

Forgetting consciousness for a minute, I think it's pretty clear that all externally visible human behavior can be explained in a physical way.  It's only a matter of time before scientists are able to build an artificial intelligence that passes the Turing Test.  They've already built artificial pets, medical expert systems, and Eliza, all of which can more or less be mistaken for their biological equivalents in a restricted domain if you squint a little.

I think consciousness is the real problem.  For a while there I was wondering why we even care what it is - I don't know if anyone else I meet is conscious or not, and I'm not sure that in general I could distinguish it as artificial intelligence gets more powerful.  Couldn't everyone else just be zombies executing programs and acting in response to external stimuli?  If it WERE true, would I know it, and would I act any differently?  I don't think I would.  The only real problem posed by consciousness is my own, since I feel conscious.  I don't know how to explain that, so I just leave off there, but I do think it's important that my consciousness is completely indistinguishable to any external observer.

A lot of philosophers seem to think that qualia pose a problem for physicalism.  I'm sure they have good arguments, and I read through a bunch of interesting thought experiments, but in the end, qualia are indescribable, unmeasurable, not transferable, and completely experiential.  In other words, in a physical sense they're a lot like consciousness.  Does anyone else experience qualia, or are they just lying about experiencing it?  Does it matter?

Isn't it interesting that the two main objections to a physicalist model of the mind are both completely unobservable and unmeasurable?  Why do we even need a model that preserves them?  So that's where I ended up at - consciousness and qualia are probably just illusions.  Free will does not exist.  And "I" still don't know what "I" am!

But I think I have to throw all that out.  Quantum mechanics poses some pretty tough problems for a physicalist model of the universe.  Taking QM into account, we can't even discuss whether physical systems are "same", since it's impossible to measure "sameness" at the lowest levels.  A question like "if there were two people who had the same molecular makeup and were place in the same environment...." can't exist in this model, since equivalence is not possible.  I think some philosophers use this low level uncertainty as a convenient place to stash concepts like free will, but I think that's a cop out.  I think you can put unpredictability (chaos) there, but not higher level concepts like free will or consciousness.

Anyway, I'm about petered out on this topic, but to answer Dave's text message, I would say:

* the universe lacks the tools of equivalence, so it's not reasonable to discuss physicalism
* i can't tell if anyone else is conscious or experiences qualia
* everything we do is a reaction to our environment and will eventually be mimicable by a machine

Where does that leave free will?  No fucking clue.


Comments:


uncleskeleton
[info]uncleskeleton at 2007-11-26 06:08 (UTC) (Link)

WOW

If anyone understands this rambling screed, I will buy you a Red Bull.
hoaxful
[info]hoaxful at 2007-11-26 17:53 (UTC) (Link)

Re: WOW

I think I owe you one for writing it.
Hiatus
[info]agh at 2007-11-27 04:39 (UTC) (Link)
This is one of those things I try and think about once every few years and forget completely about it in between. I find my mind rejects thoughts about stuff that takes it out of its context... like the universe, death, consciousness, and my stomach just ends up turning in apprehension.

I think most people officially drop the "everyone else is a robot" theory when they have kids. :-)
uncleskeleton
[info]uncleskeleton at 2007-11-27 18:19 (UTC) (Link)
Haha, I'm not sure I ended up at "everyone is a robot", but I definitely ended up at "I wouldn't be able to tell if they were, because consciousness has no externally manifested qualities".
(Anonymous) at 2007-11-27 13:49 (UTC) (Link)
Totally floored and I won't try to offer a comment on your notes. However, if you remember I have periodically dabbled at trying to understand this kind of thinking, only to be quickly befuddled. I rememeber explaining the concept(or mythical view ) of "maya" at the dinner table : i.e I exist, and you, the world, the universe everything, is an illusion that I made ! Which freaked out Ashwin and I had to stop!
But you are right, "who am I" is indeed the question where it all seems to stop because there are no answers.
Thanks Dave!! Now I'm confused.
Sudhir
(Anonymous) at 2007-12-01 22:10 (UTC) (Link)

I would have replied sooner ... but what choice did I have ?? ;-)

As the perpetrator of this discussion, it is only fair that everyone have the opportunity to endure my rambling screed as well.

The question of whether our ability to freely choose is real and not an illusion can be thought of on a couple of levels. In addition to sending this text to Arjun, I sent it to 9 other people. Of those who replied there was a range of answers covering many of these different levels - the purely physical level, the level of human interaction, and the possibility of genetic determinism.

Ken, a friend from school, was the first to respond. His answer is that the universe is completely determined, even at the quantum level. Everyone agrees that as far as Newton is concerned, perfect knowledge of the state of the universe, and perfect knowledge of the physical laws of the universe, would allow one to predict with certainty what would happen next. If this is true, there is only one possible future. To put it even more boldly, while it seems that there are very long odds against an explosion of hydrogen molecules 14.5 billion years ago ended in me writing this comment, once it started, it couldn't happen any other way.

Ken backed up this view by suggesting the apparent randomness of quantum phenomena indicates an underlying determinism that we don't yet understand. The fact that uranium atoms decay at different rates than cesium atoms in predictable ways means that there is something non-random causing the decay, and the fact that all uranium atoms have a consistent (predictable) rate of decay also indicates some non-random cause of the decay. But this point is still debatable - true hard determinism would imply that upon the formation of every atom, by knowing everything about the composition of that atom and the laws of physics, it could be known exactly when the atom would experience decay (assuming no outside force impacts the rate of decay).

Ken's final point is that even if hard determinism is true, and we don't truly have free will, understanding this fact doesn't change much about our daily lives because we have the appearance of free will, and that is what really matters. He adds, the knowledge that everything is determined is not a guide in life, it does not help you achieve success, and it certainly doesn't imply we should all just sit around on the couch because we couldn't do any different. I personally disagree with him on this point - I think an ultimate lack of free will has consequences for how we view and treat criminals, and people generally.

Andy was the next to reply. Within the limits of a text message, he says that "I think we exercise free will anytime we overcome instinct, or employ willpower." This is a compatibalist view - hard determinism, ala Ken, can be true, but free will still exists because as rational agents we make choices. Under this view, I exercise free will in drafting this message because I chose to do it instead of doing some work, unpacking boxes, or watching another Ron Paul video on YouTube. However, if I didn't have a choice to write this because someone has a gun to my head and demands that I do it, then I am no longer exercising free will.

Chris answered along the same lines as Andy (with the same caveat about this being a text message) "Yes. Take reproduction vs. Education. Currently the most educated reproduce less. This is at odds with genetics/biology." This is an example of our free will overcoming instinct - getting an education at the expense of reproducing more.

---continued---
(Anonymous) at 2007-12-01 22:11 (UTC) (Link)

continued from above...

Finally, Arjun's post about physicalism resonates - the possibility of true randomness at the sub-atomic level cuts against hard determinism, but it is questionable whether this creates any room for agency or choice. I don't agree that the universe lacking the tools of equivalence (that it is possible to replay an identical physical experiment, even hypothetically, because of true quantum randomness) would preclude concluding the existence of free will or not.

if there is true randomness at the sub-atomic level, it is not clear that these fluctuations have any impact on our brains on a day to day basis. The life or death of a cat in a box based on decay probabilities is one example of sub-atomic impact on the Newtonian world, but these examples are rare. In all likelihood, the chemical interactions out of which brain function emerges are not impacted by quantum phenomena, and our brain behaves as deterministically as an 11th grade physics experiment.

So if hard determinism is correct, then there is clearly no free will, because there can only be one future. If hard determinism is not true, then randomness enters the equation, which means there is more than one possible future, but does not mean that we have any more control over what ultimately happens - just that we can't predict it even with perfect knowledge.

That said, I agree with Andy and Chris - we can overcome our instincts, and we can assert "will power". Just because overcoming instincts and asserting "will power" can be explained in a purely physical way that is entirely predictable doesn't mean we aren't still asserting our will, any more than explaining how Lake Michigan came to exist through glacier movements somehow makes Lake Michigan disappear.

So, in summary:

* We do not have free will in the ultimate sense that our conscious activity can change the future
* We do make choices, in that our brains go through a process of considering facts and weighing alternatives, but this experience does not negate the causal nature of the universe
* When you think about it, humans act much more like animals than an idealized notion of conscious beings, so this isn't all that surprising ;-)

Cheers,
Dave
(Anonymous) at 2007-12-03 17:37 (UTC) (Link)

Re: continued from above...

speaking of natural laws, this thread is getting a bit long. so long that....we're about to break Godwin's Law!
Previous Entry  Next Entry  

Advertisement

Customize